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Valora Grear
Tau Ceti Global Production
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.04.06 02:50:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Razin
I did respond. The game lacks mechanisms for stealth based tactics like an ambush which forces players to metagame. Removing the recon function from Local chat would mitigate this problem to a certain degree. This is where the discussion sits.
The game's lack of a method for stealth tactics does not justify metagaming. You are taking a mechanic, logging off, and using it in a way it was not intended, logging on for a surprise attack, in order to give your self an advantage. Plain and simple.
Originally by: Razin
Ambush tactics depend on circumstances. Being outnumbered or trying to catch a hardened and nearly invulnerable target are some examples where logon tactics are pretty much mandatory, unless you like dieing or spending hours online and never catching your prey.
hmmm...I'm losing but instead of accepting that I think I'll cheat. Perhaps you should not pick a fight with someone who posesses better skills/resources? Or just suck it up that sometimes you mess up and die...that's why you have a clone.
Originally by: Razin
Labeling the tactic ôdishonorableö or ôunimaginativeö is a product of a tool mentality.
swah? Because he thinks you are cheating he's a tool? Can you define tool for me please.
Originally by: Razin
Players will always do what it takes to win, no matter how ugly the method.
That doesn't justify their actions or make what you are doing not metagaming. It just means some humans are sad little people that feel the need to cheat even when it's nothing beyond a silly game.
Originally by: Razin
The losers will always moralize and make up irrelevant excuses for their defeat.
Irrelevant, no...ineffectual...well ultimately that depends on CCP. However, either way it doesn't invalidate their argument...you are cheating...you won't be punished but punishment doesn't presuppose metagaming.
Originally by: Razin
Ideally CCP should be working on a system that allows a truly persistent world where the ships never disappear after logoff, though I realize the chances of this are slim to none.
True...and irrelevant...at best an excuse.
Originally by: Razin
Local makes it impossible for ôstealthersö. The use of the cloaking device canÆt strictly be called stealth tactics since Local will always give you up, so the device behaves more like an ôinvulnerability fieldö rather than a stealth aid.
as they say "Can I have your stuff?" I mean really not only has it been said that stealth works fine for spying...it just doesn't allow for stealth ganking atm...but I'd think you could find something else to do in Eve.
Originally by: Razin
What exactly do you mean by ôcheap killsö? Is Warp-to-Zero or Local Recon Tool cheap? They certainly donÆt cost you anything.
Uh, people who do not even try to justify their metagaming...but you know that right? Local is part of the game you chose to play...logging off/on to make a kill is NOT PART OF THE INTENDED DESIGN. Warp to zero is cheap but it's official, don't like it leave...you wanna metagame and continue what you're doing, fine, you probably won't be punished but don't try to make us believe your actions are anything but weak.
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Valora Grear
Tau Ceti Global Production
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.04.06 03:00:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Lord Slater
Sadly using Logon tactics shows yuo are a pretty Poor PvP person so really!!! why is everyone responding to yuo thats what i want to know?
Because metagaming/macrobotting/hacking RUINS games. Has, does and will continue to...until players themselves stop it. Devs/GM/Mods/etc will never be able to stop all of it. It needs to stop being an exceptable practice among any group in online gaming. This isn't an naive expectation...I doubt this will ever happen but all the same seeing the ignorance frustrates the hell out of me. You win at the cost of destroying the game you cared so much about you felt the need to cheat in the first place.
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Valora Grear
Tau Ceti Global Production
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.04.06 06:28:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Valora Grear
Originally by: Lord Slater
Sadly using Logon tactics shows yuo are a pretty Poor PvP person so really!!! why is everyone responding to yuo thats what i want to know?
Because metagaming/macrobotting/hacking RUINS games. Has, does and will continue to...until players themselves stop it. Devs/GM/Mods/etc will never be able to stop all of it.
Originally by: Razin
They can sure as hell stop this one. All it needs is a set of fixes, nerfing Local and making ships persistent in space are among these.
Look the idea is good, I like it myself though it's more complicated then just what you post but all that is moot. CCP is under no obligation to make the game work the way you want it to. And in no way are you justified in cheating if you don't like that fact.
Originally by: Razin
However, if CCP even bring these up for discussion all the moralizers posting with their alts/mains in this thread will scream bloody murder and threaten to quit.
This could be said about almost any topic in Eve of any importance...and local is in that category. So just leave the fluff out.
Originally by: Razin
Skill and patience and tactics may arse.
Spoken like a man who relies on an unfair advantage.
Originally by: Razin
Remember kids, there is no such a thing as a fair fight.
do you understand the concept of metagaming? do you really need me to explain the problem it causes? in the extreme why don't I just hack your account, sell all your things, transfer the money to me then delete your character and cancel your account...whatever it takes right? I win before you even log back on...
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Valora Grear
Tau Ceti Global Production
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.04.06 06:39:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Valora Grear on 06/04/2007 06:43:44
Originally by: Valora Grear
Originally by: Razin
What exactly do you mean by ôcheap killsö? Is Warp-to-Zero or Local Recon Tool cheap? They certainly donÆt cost you anything.
Uh, people who do not even try to justify their metagaming...but you know that right? Local is part of the game you chose to play...logging off/on to make a kill is NOT PART OF THE INTENDED DESIGN. Warp to zero is cheap but it's official, don't like it leave...you wanna metagame and continue what you're doing, fine, you probably won't be punished but don't try to make us believe your actions are anything but weak.
Originally by: Razin
This is rich! CCP Oveur has stated numerous times that Local was never intended as a recon tool.
Fair enough but it does not make what you are doing morally or legally correct.
Originally by: Razin
CCP had also stated many times that Warp-to-Zero will never become possible by default and that their solution to instas will have drawbacks for those who like fast and safe travel. We know full well what happened to that plan. These make your "not part of the intended design" argument extremely weak, to put it mildly.
There is a HUGE difference between the plan changing and a third party, going beyond the obvious current intention of the designers. If CCP wanted logon/off traps as a 'feature' there'd be a button or skill or something worked clearly into the game solely for that purpose. Much of the problem is CCPs fault for it's disparity in rules and punishment...I mean really what do they expect when they cannot control their own house.
Originally by: Razin
Logging on is part of the game, and EVE Voice OOG client that will be used to coordinate those (as TS is used now) is only a matter of time.
this is relevant how?
Originally by: Razin
Don't like it? Leave.
I could just hack you account or call up you ISP with BS or steal your computer but I won't...you either play within the game or you don't...but I choose not to CHEAT and since I dont' even know you in game, do nothing.
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Valora Grear
Tau Ceti Global Production
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.04.06 06:45:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Valora Grear on 06/04/2007 06:41:42
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Razin
What exactly do you mean by ôcheap killsö? Is Warp-to-Zero or Local Recon Tool cheap? They certainly donÆt cost you anything.
By "cheap kills" I mean kills generated by using techniques which have next to zero chances of being countered. Log on traps fall into this.
By your definition any kill involving a significant disparity in ship class or gang size is a "cheap kill" on par with a victory achieved by cheating.
Stop being purposely dense. Your argument fails because foreseeably a person could train up a counter ship setup to whatever his opponent had and multiply as needed with friends or alts and win. There is no possible counter to being stuck in a logtrap that is not in itself metagaming. Now if a BS is camping a gate in .3 near a noob system and ganking them as they come through running missions...yes that's cheap and boderline griefing imo but not really cheating either.
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